I’ve been digging into some of the legal foundations concerning the Iran nuclear facility question over the last couple of days. In this process I should point out that getting the facts has not been at all easy. I can say that what is clear is that recent events have been either overplayed, under-documented, or more probably a combination of both.
There is the Iran Safeguards Agreement (entered into force 15 May 1974) which contains the following article:
DESIGN INFORMATION
General provisions
Article 42
Pursuant to Article 8, design information in respect of existing facilities shall be provided to the Agency during the discussion of the Subsidiary Arrangements. The time limits for the provision of design information in respect of the new facilities shall be specified in the Subsidiary Arrangements and such information shall be provided as early as possible before nuclear material is introduced into a new facility.
Clearly, this article is subject to the implementation details of the Subsidiary Arrangements. However, for the moment I have not been able to track down an on-line copy of that agreement. If you do some digging around the Internet you will come across references to Code 3.1 which exist in two forms, one from 1976, and a revision established in 1990. The following quote seems to be viral when digging into the subject:
The Subsidiary Arrangements specify when a state must report a new facility to the IAEA. “Code 3.1” of the 1976 version of the Subsidiary Arrangements requires states to report on new facilities “normally no later than 180 days before the facility is scheduled to receive nuclear material for the first time.”
It became clear that this requirement did not provide the IAEA with sufficient time to plan and prepare for safeguards. So, in the early 1990s the IAEA modified Code 3.1. The new version requires states to report on a new facility as soon as the decision to construct it is taken.
From what I understand, Iran is and remains compliant with the 1976 version of the agreement, and that following the 1990 amendment, Iran undertook a number of reporting actions consistent with that amendment, although, IAEA minutes back to around 2003 claim Iran breaching 1990 criteria. Iran on the other-hand made the distinction between state authorisation (which they point out has never occured) as opposed to their voluntary supply of information consistent with both the 1976 and 1990 criteria. Iran claims that prior voluntary actions do not constitute state endorsement (and on this I’m tempted to side with Iran). According to James M. Acton the IAEA claim that amendments are not subject to unilateral modification.
In accordance with Article 39 of Iran’s Safeguards Agreement, agreed Subsidiary Arrangements cannot be modified unilaterally; nor is there a mechanism in the Safeguards Agreement for the suspension of provisions agreed to in Subsidiary Arrangements.
If the IAEA states that Subsidiary Arrangements cannot be modified unilaterally, how was it possible that the 1990 amendments came into force if not by a unilaterally decision of the IAEA? We should keep in mind that there may be a perfectly plausible legal basis supporting the right of the IAEA to undertake unilateral action, but for now, I have not found any supporting evidence, and frankly, I doubt it exists. It may also be the case the bilateral agreement was established but not formally ratified (a more probably scenario).
An interview on MSNBC with Scott Ritter, former Chief UN Weapons Inspector supports a growing scepticism forming in my mind. In fact I think that perhaps there are grounds to argue that IAEA processes dealing with formal adoption, resolution of amendments, and accountability provisions may not be everything we would hope them to be. But if we turn around and look towards IAEA as an improvement opportunity, one cannot ignore the Israeli issue as reported by Reuters just a few days ago (18 September 2009):
The UN nuclear assembly voted on Friday to urge Israel to accede to the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and place all atomic sites under UN inspections, in a surprise victory for Arab states.
The resolution, passed narrowly for the first time in nearly two decades, expresses concern about “Israeli nuclear capabilities” and calls on International Atomic Energy Agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei to work on the issue.
One could argue that the IAEA frameworks and the geopolitical integrity of the UN (vis-a-vis Israel) are the things to watch as this process unfolds. Even more interesting in the short-term will be the approach Iran takes in the negotiations ahead.
/Cat.
Supplementary Information
Recommended Reading
Concrete Steps to Improve the Nonproliferation Regime
Pierre Goldschmidt, April 2009
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
Nonproliferation Program
903 replies on “On Unilateral Action”
affects = protects
“It’s hard to be left and vote for more troops, but sometimes life does not give you neat, ideologically pure choices.”
And just like Hue and Fallujah, sometimes it’s necessary to obliterate a city or raze a country to the ground and murder its civilians……… in order to save it.
That’s what’s god’s gift of occupation-modified American Democracy is all about……. philanthropy. Good ol’ crusading christian philanthropy.
Nothing whatsoever to do with hegemony and pipelines. Such matters of course are merely of tangential concern for the foreign invaders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Oil_Pipeline
OT. But a quick glance over the fence, reveals that Clive Hamilton is standing as the Greens candidate for Higgins.
http://vic.greens.org.au/
I must admit I’m rather looking forward to that one. 🙂
Let’s consider a few economic facts of life:
NYT
October 11, 2009
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Two Wrongs Make Another Fiasco
By FRANK RICH
Wonder how many citizens of Sepdom would rather spend their taxation monies at home on say, a public option, rather than overseas on another bullshit war?
Another Big Picture consideration is that as long as abundant oil and gas flow from the M.E., widespread global/national efforts that focus on energy alternatives will be diluted by the ubiquity of relatively cheap Big Carbon & Allied product.
‘Tis under such realities that our biospheric bake-off continues unabated.
———
Indeed, paddy, Clive will give ’em heaps. Actually, when Bobby retires, Milne and Hamilton would have widespread appeal among voters concerned about future inclement weather type-situations.
I totally agree DG, symbols are important, as are penalties,but since it’s already a crime to beat someone to death, making another classification will probably do little in itself, was my comment.
The symbolism is, as you say, another step forward.
Those pipeline conspirators are whacky fellas! They can convince the US to invade another country and bring the UN along for the ride, but they cannot actually build the pipeline that the whole thing was intended to facilitate. How long has the US been there? More than a little while? How many pipes have been put in place? None. Do any look like being in put in place in the near future? Nope.
Unless of course Wikipedia is wrong, and there has been some progress made on these mythical pipelines, with the relevant parties pocketing vast profits? No? Ah, well. Another conspiracy theory perishes due to a pesky lack of that annoying and yet oh so vital ingredient, evidence …
(Although conspiracies never really seem to die from lack of evidence, so perhaps it is not so vital after all … ;))
Ecky, for a nation that’s just stumped TRILLIONS for Wall Street, this economic argument is small beer in comparison. So put in this context the issue is not about money, unless you’re the type to quibble about the price of your cancer therapy? LOL
It’s not about money (or really shouldn’t be), is not about oil (a total furphy in this case), so what is it about? It’s a war that Obama inherited from GW Bush, and one where the US made a hasty effort to eradicate the elements that were behind 9/11. Yes, they were Saudi’s, but backed by bin Laden’s crew in Afghanistan and who were ‘sheltered’ there by the Taliban.
I don’t think they did it well, but they had every justification for removing the Taliban who refused to surrender bin Laden. They really did not have much choice, but like I said, the execution was sloppy.
So, as the man said: “Break it, and you own it”
America ‘owns’, not Afghanistan, but the mess created there.
Can they fix it? Not by pulling out now they cannot. Can they do it with the current troop levels? Apparently not, according to McChrystal (and I’ll defer to his experience and assessment on that point), who says he thinks it MIGHT be possible with more.
Argue that point, by all means, but shooting messengers who convey information that is NOT consistent with your prejudices (ie ALL American action in Afghanistan is BAD) and you sink to the level of a cheerleader, not a rational debater.
Your choice.
Well i look at it from this point of view. The oil is the product that comes from the plants when they milk them and the pipelines are the old silk roads. There may be other pipelines out of the country which are owned by some shady subsiduaries of a world wide intelligence organisation.
Quick bucks and a ready made distribution for cash and no taxes on the income.
Very similar to Vietnam actually.
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2008/11/24/cia-heroin-still-rule-day-in-afghanistan.html#
In the meantime while they are occupying they can just go on testing their new toys like the new X-47B UCAS in a real life situations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohtT3QLMF8Q
The whole operation could quite possibly be funded by the proceeds from Poppy plants.
So, Gaffy, are you saying that soon after 9/11 America decided to invade Afghanistan and topple the Taliban to secure the poppy crop for profit?????
Hmm, can I have what you’re smoking? LOL
Kirri, LBJ owned JFK’s war and walked away a broken and devastated man. Is this to be The Kid’s destiny too. Building vital infrastrucure in Afghanistan is commendable but how long are armed invaders and drone directors going to be there to enforce their benevolence? Deferring to McChrystal in this instance, imo, is a strategic mistake. Another quagmire.
Insurgencies seem to follow a pattern; each passing day reminds those who remember of the similarities in tactics and the tenacity of purpose demonstrated on the one hand by the tightly led Vietcong and on the other, by the fragmented and disparite elements of tribal Taliban.
I’ve heard all this talk of “you break, it you own it” before.
We went to Iraq because Saddam was allegedly making nuclear weapons. Opps no he wasn’t, but there we were and Saddam was a very bad Ba’athist who was harbouring Al-Kaeda so we’d better stay and fix it.
Still there arn’t they?
We went to Afghanistan to whack Al-Kaeda and Bin Laden. Today Al-Kaeda are pretty thin on the ground(and in the mountains) but we have to stay and eliminate Taliban because they do despicable things to freedom-loving Afghanis. So let’s prop up a totally corrupt Karzai government, keep pouring in human and military resources and hope for the best. Besides, god’s on our side and we can’t lose face, can we?
Colour me prejudiced, if being prejudiced means I believe that invading and occupying armies and their aerial shock and awe drones should leave Afghanistan NOW; which of course they won’t for reasons mentioned earier.
That’s a kind of prejudice I can live with. The locals would be far better off under their traditional leaders in Afghanistan, as indeed Iraqis were far better off under Saddam before The Imbecile used Iraq as a scapegoat for Al-Kaeda in 2003 and built all of those mega-bases whose raison d’etre is spigot access and regional hegemony.
One language that all the tribal leaders and the disparate pot-pourri that is the present Taliban talk…. is money. Give them a seat and a stake at the Peace Table and deal them in. Amazing how many difficult situations get sorted at good ol’ fashioned game of “poker”. When human beings make a genuine effort to show respect and communicate with other great things are realistically achievable. Catch-22 is that most players who would wind up at the Afghani (and M.E.) Poker Table are playing for vested interests rather than those of Les Peuples.
“And so it goes” as Uncle Kurt wrote so poignantly.
What a wonderful world it would be if the interests of those who worship Mammon don’t coincide quite so often with those who worship Morloch and Mars.
“The locals would be far better off under their traditional leaders in Afghanistan, as indeed Iraqis were far better off under Saddam”
You ‘forget’ to mention they were only ‘far better off’ if you were Sunni in Iraq (and not Shia or Kurd), and only if you were Pashtun in Afghanistan, not Hazara, Tajik or any minority that was regularly persecuted in vile ways. Another simplification so egregious I’m surprised you’d make it.
Simplifying the argument to either a lust for war or money is, I’m afraid, just rhetoric.
On the other hand if you’d like to argue the facts (even the ones you obviously don’t want to hear), in all their messy complexity, I’m glad to respond.
Yes, being a female or a homosexual in Afghanistan you would be much better off under traditional tribal rule … Seriously, EC?
And Saddam, he was a peach of a ruler. He was peace loving, benevolent and rejected avarice and nepotism. Gandhi? Pah. That Hussein chap’s the real deal. And his party had the word ‘socialist’ in its name, too. And the evil capitalists wrecked his progressive agenda. The bastards.
I should note here that I am very critical of the US for its handling of the Iraqi occupation, and for the many failures apparent in Afghanistan. And I understand that their motives were complex and certainly included self-serving ones and were most definitely not just, ‘Let’s help those poor people.’
(although I would argue that that thought played a not insignificant role – it is a theme that runs through neo-conservative writings and while of course that may be simple propaganda, I tend to think that many people genuinely do wish to help others – and themselves, of course! – but disagree on the how.)
And while we singing Saddam’s praises, let’s recall his two sons who were about to inherit his private fiefdom, otherwise known as Iraq. One was a renowned sadistic pervert and the other was just like his dad.
yep, they were ‘far better off’ under the old man! LOL
David, like you, I’ve got my criticisms of US militarism, but defending Saddam or the Taliban is one road I’ll not cross just for ‘ideological purity’.
812
David, there’s a very sad irony about being a female or a homosexual in Afghanistan under the great and good western powers.
It’s *not* any better.
For all their bluster, spin and plain out lying, the invaders do SFA for the persecuted in Afghanistan.
It’s no good spouting cant about how the Taliban are evil incarnate, when the “supposed” good guys are utterly useless when it comes to protecting those who they claim to defend.
The western allies have *lost* this fucking war.
Just like a long, sad and sorry list of previous invaders.
It never ceases to amaze me how supposedly sensible and intelligent people, can’t quite accept this sad reality.
809
No I did not say that at all. The Seppos have been there mixed up in and controlling the drugs trade there well before 9/11 and when it is estimated at $200bil a year i can’t see them in a hurry to pull out.
I have been led by honest John Howard and honest George Bush to believe that Afghanistan was to be invaded to rid the world of ugly terrorists like Bin Laden.
Failed miserably by the way.
Other than that i am just following your rules 😉 at;
773
Kirri
Anyway…Back on planet Pluto….That bloody dog is at it again. 😆
http://media.crikey.com.au/Media/images/091023-FantasticVoyage-468f3691-5ea9-4aaa-8897-1106459fe03c.jpg
paddy,
Accepting that that is the case, and that women and gays and other minorities are no better off now than they were under the Taliban, do you think that the West abandoning Afghanistan now will improve the situation for Afghan women?
As to losing the war, what is your definition of ‘losing’ in this context. I would argue that neither side have acheived their strategic objectives but that the Taliban would most certainly achieve theirs if the US left. So, calling for the US to leave seems to me to be calling for a Taliban victory that has not yet occurred.
DG, we all know you and Kirri are suckers for a man in uniform. If you’re not revealing your prejudices by declaring blind faith in a military which you admit made a mess out Afghanistan, then what are you doing? What war haven’t they made a mess out of by the way?
So how many generals does it take to hold a rational debate?
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/10/21-8
…
Meanwhile, as one commenter states in this piece, the golpistas continue to play musical decrees.
How Can it be Legal to Revoke the Right Of Assembly?
http://hondurascoup2009.blogspot.com/2009/10/how-can-it-be-legal-to-revoke-right-of.html
Paddy, for what it’s worth, remember the first national vote in Afghanistan, were women paraded their inked fingers in the street and were jubilant that for the first time they actually had a voice?
OK, tell me there are mistakes, there is corruption and nepotism and all kinds of unsavoury activities, yes, there are, but compared with what? We even talk of American voting fraud here on a regular basis!
Nothing is perfect, that cannot be the standard to judge things by, and I sense more of the rhetoric that anything that involves the US is ipso facto evil.
Sorry, I just cannot agree to all of that.
HW, don’t verbal me please.
I’ve been as critical of the US in Iraq as anyone I know, here or elsewhere, so provide some evidence before you spill that tosh about being a ‘sucker for a man in uniform’.
Of course if that’s the kind of stuff that makes you feel ‘clever’, well, you’re welcome to it.
HusseinStWorm,
How is saying, ‘They have made huge mistakes, but they are better than the Taliban’ exhibiting blind faith?
There is no war that ‘they’ have not made a mess of in various ways. But, for example, the South Koreans are much better off than their fellows in the north.
It often seems to me that people want there to be a perfect method to solve problems before they will attempt to solve them. They let the perfect option become the enemy of the better-then-the-worst.
There is, imo, no way that the Afghanistan under the Taliban was better than the Afghanistan under the current rule.
(to clarify the above post: the taliban may have been better in certain specific areas – drug reduction, for example, over some time spans – but not overall.)
However, people should always remember that I am purely an instrument of my dark masters, the Israeli government. Damn, I love the Israeli uniform. And eye patches. Sexy.
DG, do you have Moshe fetish too?
Actually, I dress up as Dr Strangelove and sniff the glove for kicks!
819
David, as to whether the situation for women, gays or infidels in Afghanistan will improve if the west pulls out. I honestly don’t know. But I’m not sure it could get much worse. 🙁
Ongoing guerrilla warfare, plus an invading army dropping bombs out of nowhere and trying to impose their own (foreign) will on the various tribal groupings is really pretty grim.
Then again, Wahabist Islam is not exactly a bed of roses either.
(Think Saudi Arabia, with it’s appalling record of religiously inspired bastardry.)
As for the Taliban, I’m not sure they could survive as a coherent force if the west pulled out.
Afghanistan seems to resist “other Afghans” just as fiercely as foreigners.
I don’t think there are any easy answers, but history would seem to say, that keeping large numbers of foreign troops on the ground in Afghanistan is a total waste of blood.
All very depressing. 🙁
paddy,
I am unclear why the Taliban would not survive as a coherent force if the West pulled out. They did pretty well without the West being there – they ran the place, after all.
If the West pulled out, it would be a triumph for the Taliban. That alone would propel them to victory over internal allies.
I do not believe that Afghanistan would be better off with the US gone. It is better off with the Taliban gone.
(not that they are ‘gone’, of course – just not in power)
KR,
I am Dayan for some Moshe …
I all too often hear the anti war proponents labelled as “Dreamers”.
It seems too me that it is the backers and supporters of these wars or invasions or occupations or whatever that are the “Dreamers”.
“Just give us a bit more money and a few more lives and darnit we’ll get it right this time.”
HarryH,
The US will not get it right. They will merely get it better than under the Taliban.
David,
Tell the mums and dads and sons and daughters of the dead and maimed that “getting it better” is worth it.
Tell the bank balance of the invaders that “getting it better” is worth it.
And who says that they have or will succeed in “getting it better”?
830
David Gould
tish boom! LOL
And all so repeatedly HH, the ‘we only want peace…who could be against that?’ crowd fail to recognise the bloody awful stuff done to people on a grand scale when they’re left to fend against tyrants and fascists. It’s the same refrain: why didn’t the US intervene in Rwanda, but when they do ‘intervene’ the same crowd heckle and jeer because they are ‘only doing it for oil’. See the problem??
HarryH,
I am assuming that you will be telling the same thing to those who lost family to the Taliban and how much better off they will be when the US is gone and the Taliban are back …
And because they might not succeed they should not try and because some people might make a profit and have ulterior motives for supporting the attempt we should not do anything?
Kirri
The arguments about “why” have been done to death. A million times over.
But the reality is now that they fucked it up and continue to fuck it up and have ever changing reasons why they want to continue fucking it up.
And some people still want to trust them with lives and bounty.
The true believers.
So, HH, if something is not going well, you just say, oh, tough shit, I’ll give up.
Ever heard of principles like sticking to something and trying harder?
Boy, you’re the Winston Churchill of cyberspace, aren’t you?
838
is not worth replying too
No, I doubt you’d have much to offer except the usual ‘man in uniform’ rubbish, and some predigested crud you read on the internet.
When you’ve got an idea of your own, let us know.
840
Well, it wasn’t me who hit you with the “man in uniform” line. But anyways….lol
Your attempted belittling reminds me of GG from over the fence.
Ah well…water…ducks back.
OK, you two, I want a nice clean discussion here, no low blows, and break clinches when tapped. Call anybody else off this blog what you like, but we’ve been together here long enough now to eschew inter-commenter ad hominem-type sleding.
Now touch gloves and come out fighting! 🙂
If we’re gonna shit-stir each other from time to time, fine. But there’s no good reason why we can’t do so with panache.
*returns wooden spoon to pantry*
—————————-
Kirri, here’s a bit of peer-reviewed stuff from “actual scientists” at Lancet (orthodox Modern Medicine) which supports my earlier claim of Iraqis being better-off under Saddam, a claim which you shiftily suggested was “singing the praises of Saddam Hussein”. It wasn’t.
Also note that when Saddam was in charge, citizens could walk around without being pink-misted or maimed and they could use the infrastructure like roads and bridges safely. Sure, life wasn’t a bunch of lotuses; some Iraqi citizens were nabbed and tortured in Abu Ghraib by his Secret Police, however RELATIVELY SPEAKING quality of life was much better, utilities functioned satisfactorily and the chances of violent and sudden death or maiming were substantially less than after US Forces invading and occupyinf, and building all those Green Zone-like Super-Bases.
Anyway, these figures aren’t to difficult to digest.
“The second survey[2][3][4] published on 11 October 2006, estimated 654,965 excess deaths related to the war, or 2.5% of the population, through the end of June 2006.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
DSCC Accuses GOP Of Wasting 1,000 Hours In Senate (VIDEO).
=============================================
Great video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/22/dscc-accuses-gop-of-wasti_n_331053.html
Another Oh shit moment.
As if there wasn’t enough trouble in the region already.
If King Bhumibol of Thailand decides to shuffle off into a new reincarnation, then batten down the hatches.
I have to say, he’s probably the only head of state in SEAsia who’s genuinely venerated by the vast majority of his subjects.
What’s more, there’s a long held prophesy (I first heard of it when I went to Thailand thirty years ago.) that says he will be the last of the Chakri dynasty.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/10/23/thais-flocking-hospital-pray-ill-king.html
Interesting times ahead.
EC at 842
Do you remember that moment in Sunshine the movie where Cassie says…
😉
But on the theme in question – some observations:
The existence of bribery, corruption and/or electoral fraud has little to no impact (just try doing business in Eastern Europe, or the US Senate for that matter). If you live in that context and you work within that system – it’s really only evil if you drag your own social baggage into the equation.
Second point – quotes, figures, and comparison linked to Iraq drift into irrelevance when we are talking about Afghanistan (as do comparisons with Vietnam), and arguments about women’s rights are totally academic as are links to 9/11. It’s not about any of that. Instead its all about the prevention of the emergence of secular extremism in the Middle-East. Thing is – democracy is a tool and for better or worse the sustainment of efforts promoting and enabling the construction of the pillars of democracy is a good thing simply because it reduces the risk of the rise of the secular state.
And on those grounds – I hereby declare that KR is correct.
🙂
I have already posted parts of this. Here is the full UCLA study. Very interesting.
================================================
UCLA Study: The Internet Is Altering Our Brains
Adults with little Internet experience show changes in their brain activity after just one week online, a new study finds.
————————————————————————————–
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,568576,00.html
Chris B at 846
My mother warned me about this.
🙁
846 Does this mean there is some hope for Republicans?
Cat,
You could play the role of Ziggy Brzezinsky’s daughter and protege much better than that Mika chick. 😉
Catrina 😆
847 Catrina and you still did it inspite of mother 😈
HarryH at 849
Oh gosh – that’s just about the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me!
😳
BREAKING: Major momentum suddenly for the public option, in just the few hours – while Snowe tries to kill the bill.
Something is going on in Washington, behind the scenes. And it’s absolutely fascinating.
TPM, WaPo’s Plum Line, ABC and the NYT all suddenly have stories showing a sudden last-minute rise in optimism that the Senate could end up passing a health care reform bill with a real public option. All the while, Olympia Snowe, true to form, is now trying to kill the bill.
In the last few hours, we’ve learned:
Democratic Senators are telling the NYT that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is leaning towards including the public option in the legislation he sends to the Senate floor. And we really like this from the NYT story:
continued on AMERICAblog
http://www.americablog.com/2009/10/breaking-major-momentum-suddenly-for.html
But shall we avoid talking about the 200,000 Shia that Saddam ‘wasted’ after his little Kuwait excursion, or the relentless persecution, let alone gassing, of the northern Kurds?
You see, put things in context, it makes a difference. And let’s note that many of those deaths in Iraq were NOT by US forces, but by militia of both sectarian groups.
Should we perhaps compare the deaths in Britain during WWII and conclude that they were not ‘better off’ and therefore should have surrendered to the Nazis?
It all depends on timeframe, and we could have that argument another time.
Aye, Cat, remember it well. Liked the soundtrack a lot too.
On your first point, why bother going through the sham of calling something “democracy” when in the end even the UN’s most senior observers have called Karzai’s ballot stuffing bonanza for the complete fraud it was. Karzai will hold power because he is a malleable U.S. puppet, someone with whom they can do business. I understand how necessary it is to grease the wheels of bureaucracy and commerce to get things done in most places.
Why not bring all elements The Taliban to talk about an electoral process before declaring an election? There are three major Taliban factions operating in Afghanistan at the mo.
If an expression for greater glasnost is social baggage where the Dickens is one to check-in one’s integrity? 🙂
On your second point, I don’t believe it’s wise to invade and occupy a land and dictate to the citizens of that land: “You vill be haffing a bewdiful Democracy now…..Ya?!”
Respectfully, therefore, disagree with your adjudication in this instance. Can’t see the invaders and occupiers scarpering for at least five years as there is no exit strategy in Afghanistan (none in Iraq, either) so no doubt there will be lots more to congenially blog about on the topic. Going forward. Good to be with you. Which everybody knows is a Rumsfeldian known known. 🙂
For Cassie……. our little Ms Sunshine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbUdKVIr8ZE
Kirri, the U.S. hounded The Kurds and the Marsh Sunnis to rise up and topple Saddam after Desert Storm. They then stood by and watched them be slaughtered en masse. The helicopters and machine guns that Saddam’s soldiers used were US supplied so Seps were hardly “innocent bystanders”.
KR at 854: “Should we perhaps compare the deaths in Britain during WWII and conclude that they were not ‘better off’ and therefore should have surrendered to the Nazis?”
Britain had an Air Force and a Navy and was aligned with Allied Forces. Although they were being bombarded by a foreign power, they were perfectly capable of defending themselves, as History records.
Sunnis and Kurds had none of these defence advantages when the severely provoked despot, who’d just been removed from influence in Kuwait, decided to unleash his vengeful rage upon the Southern Sunis and drain their marshes and gas the Kurds and execute high rotation aerial Turkeys Shoots all miraculously, without encroaching upon the US No Fly Zones.
KR: It all depends on timeframe, and we could have that argument another time.
Suits me, Kirri, have a beaut weekend.
Dear me. I think the GOP and the health insurance industry should be a bit worried about this guy.
Sen. Al Franken certainly earns his salary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgqqSHr0wVA&feature=player_embedded
857
Paddy
Every thing he has done so far has been spot on and well researched.
I wonder how that lady enjoyed her vomit when she left the room feeling very sick after that.
I bet she got a surprise with that answer after she thought she was going to educate him on something.
858
Gaffy, I think she might be convalescing in …….
Switzerland….or France. 👿
Hope there is a message in here for someone.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26250977-952,00.html
860
That *IS* a good news story Gaff.
There’s something about spammers, that just brings out that visceral urge to rip their bloody arms off. 🙂
Speaking of primitive urges…Have you seen Possum’s latest spray on Clive Hamilton’s run for the seat of Higgins. 😆 😆 😆
Talk about “visceral”. I haven’t heard Poss going feral like that since Johnny was a rat.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/10/23/greens-choose-moralising-crypto-communist-for-higgins/
861
Paddy
Yeah i read it yesterday.
And while you are on the subject of Rats they are nearly always associated with ships or grain silos;
That is quite hilarious as AWB was paying Saddam kickbacks for wheat he was not even getting.
http://www.watoday.com.au/business/awb-paid-iraq-trucking-fees-regardless-court-told-20091022-hbhm.html
856
Enemy Combatant
The Marsh Arabs were Shia, you’ve got it arse about, but that’s a minor point, and yes, I know the history of Iraq quite well, thanks.
If we only want to be selective and discuss US faults, then fine, but omitting the genocide of Saddam (for example the draining of the Marsh Arabs lands and the most vile suppression to the point they where they were sent into exile in huge numbers) or the decades of killing the Kurds, resetttling Sunnis into their homelands, is a good debating tactic, but so fundamentally dishonest it hardly warrants answering.
Call out every US fault, yes like Fallujah, it was a travesty, a huge over-reaction to hanging Western corpses on a bridge, counter-productive, a war crime even, but put in context against what happened in Iraq for DECADES, and it’s one very bad instance of US military behaviour.
Balance that against the liberation of the Shia and Kurds from Saddam in total, and it takes on a very different significance.
I just get tired of the constant wailing and gnashing of teeth that EVERYTHING done by the US is wrong, evil, corrupt and vile. And you think Saddam’s Iraq was better??
Beat your drum, just don’t expect everyone to dance to it without question.
There’s a really excellent piece in the NY Times by the US journalist captured and held for 7 months by the Taliban with his two local colleagues. It’s a long diary piece in sections, but I thought this comment salient:
Over those months, I came to a simple realization. After seven years of reporting in the region, I did not fully understand how extreme many of the Taliban had become. Before the kidnapping, I viewed the organization as a form of “Al Qaeda lite,” a religiously motivated movement primarily focused on controlling Afghanistan.
Living side by side with the Haqqanis’ followers, I learned that the goal of the hard-line Taliban was far more ambitious. Contact with foreign militants in the tribal areas appeared to have deeply affected many young Taliban fighters. They wanted to create a fundamentalist Islamic emirate with Al Qaeda that spanned the Muslim world.
…he also says that he originally thought them very religious but came to realise they were corrupt and greedy and hypocritical.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/world/asia/18hostage.html?hp
…so, that’s what will erupt in Afghanistan and explode in Pakistan if the West walks away as some here seem to think.
Leaving will come at a VERY high cost to regional stability. Iran will suddenly have a Shia-hating theocracy on it’s eastern borders, and the instability in Pakistan will push it harder towards nukes, as they will argue that the risk is that radical elements might topple the Pakistan government and they will have to arm themselves against an enemy that calls all Shia ‘dogs’.
This region is dangerous, complex, and infested with tribalism and religious fundamentalisms, and the religious fascists will NOT, as the quote above says, be content to sit quietly and govern for ‘all’ Afghans. We will hand them a victory, and a platform to deliver their version of fascism to the region.
It will be slaughter and regional chaos.
I’m not in favour of that, and think no matter how difficult it is, we have an obligation to those who do not want that to happen to them.
So for those arguing that Afghanistan is corrupt, yes, it is, but here’s the captured journalists quote:
“As the months dragged on, I grew to detest our captors. I saw the Haqqanis as a criminal gang masquerading as a pious religious movement. They described themselves as the true followers of Islam but displayed an astounding capacity for dishonesty and greed.”
…so will handing those people the country make it any better?
Nope.
You’ll just get less music and more public executions and ambitions to spread their fanatical fascism into Pakistan and beyond.
Sorry, but that’s the hard reality.
Gitmo Playlist Under Pressure:
“A diverse group of musicians joined a coalition on Tuesday asking that the Obama administration close down the terror suspect camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Taking issue with their music reportedly being blasted at ear-bleeding levels in an attempt to break uncooperative terror suspects, artists including R.E.M., Pearl Jam, Nine Inch Nails, Rage Against the Machine, Rosanne Cash, Steve Earle and Billy Bragg announced their support for the National Campaign to Close Guantanamo, according to The Associated Press.
According to BBC News, in a statement announcing their participation in the coalition, R.E.M. said, “We have spent the past 30 years supporting causes related to peace and justice. To now learn that some of our friends’ music may have been used as part of the torture tactics without their consent or knowledge is horrific. It’s anti-American, period.”
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1624448/20091022/nine_inch_nails.jhtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgt_WDjbO0o
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77372
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77445
Time to make a killing in Health and lock the profits into War Bonds.
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77389
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77392
Oct 22:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/tony-auth
Agent Green:
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77404
Agent Orange:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW7q4ICXp0s
Sachs Man’s Burden
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77412
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77426
——–
Let me make one thing perfectly clear; there is nothing to be concerned about here. Over millions of years exposure, our ancestors have been able to develop Natural Immunity against these extremely rare environmental toxins. Manufacturers have a perfect right to continue to foul our Biospheric Nest as they deem fit.
We need to cut these Corps some slack. After all, we allow our grown kids to take a dump on the doorstep and take a leak on the carpet whenever the urge arises. So why shouldn’t we be tolerant of allowing global manufacturers to continue to foul our Biospheric Nest.
Big Picture-wise we must at all times remain consistent in our reasoning.
Anyway, why worry about stuff like water when our atmosphere is as pristine and fresh as it was on the eve of the Industrial Revolution. Time to count our blessings and go to the Mall brandishing plastic and swipe our cares and woes away.
Just like President Bush said we should after nine eleven!
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/77418/
————-
————-
Oct 23:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/rob-rogers
Oct 23:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/matt-bors
Oct 23:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/tom-toles
—————————
Kirri, you support “selective” invasion and occupation of Iraq and Af-Pak in the hope that “slaughter and regional chaos” will be averted. Hasn’t worked too well so far, mate.
I think it’s a much better idea to gather all parties swept up in the current M.E.-wars-sans-exit-strategies….. and get them into Peace Talks pronto.
Most human beings support the notion of living in peace, however the Military-Industrial-Complex make so much money from constant wars that there is little prospect of this occurring anytime soon.
It’s just one of those quirky coincidences I’m certain, but The Weekly Standard remains ideologically aligned with your stance as do the majority of hardline neoconservatives; American Exceptionalism writ large.
One would think that eight centuries after the Coeur de Lion Crusader capers, foreign powers would appreciate just how fraught with difficuly the Middle East is for foreigners with commercial and hegemonic intent WITHOUT large standing armies (and mercenaries too). And in this instance three Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups which as has been pointd out earlier, have bubkes to do with regional pipelines and shipping lanes.
Be interesting to see a Pew Poll asking Americans:
“In a democracy like ours, would you rather our government spend more taxpayers’ money on:
1/ Invading and occupying foreign lands
or,
2/ A fully funded Public Option”
I’m with those who believe charity and democracy begin at home.
And thanks, marsh Arabs are indeed mainly Shia. Most McCainian of me to have suggested otherwise. 🙂
Oil company responsible for fouling our biospheric nest rewarded with more oil drilling leases:
Blessed are the Big Carbon Polluters, for they shall dis-inherit us of our Earth.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/24/2723175.htm
Kirribilli Removals at 864
Just finished reading the NYT piece. Reading about Taliban fighters browsing the Internet in the Pakistani badlands and then …
To say it’s an interesting read is an understatement.
Lots of denials about the following report, but it is worth referencing all the same …
HAARETEZ: Iran, Israel attend secret nuclear meet in Cairo
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1122798.html
868
Catrina
Glad you read it Cat, I’m still only part way through but find it fascinating and revealing.
Oh, and I did *blush* a bit further up the page, as I’m not usually given honours in debates! I find it really difficult to overcome my innate aversion to US imperialism to accept that in this case it is the lesser of two evils, and that despite the profusion of rhetoric to the contrary, the intention of the current administration is far more noble than that of its adversaries. (But of course it’s implementation is often pretty poor, but looks like it’s improving under Obama).
Personally I find it a real moral challenge to align myself with ‘rabid rightwingers’ and ‘neocons’ but essentially the argument still stands, regardless of who makes it, and who you find yourself standing next to.
Of course barracking for the home team is always the easy option, but in this case I think it’s intellectually and morally bereft.
A moment of joy at a Republican meeting on healthcare. About 1m 30s into the following piece, just sit back and enjoy the next 90 seconds.
Delightful.
Rachel and Jon (Stewart) are my two favourite American media presenters.
A gruesome, but telling moment in David Rohde’s account:
A stalemate between the United States and the Taliban seemed to unfold before me. The drones killed many senior commanders and hindered their operations. Yet the Taliban were able to garner recruits in their aftermath by exaggerating the number of civilian casualties.
The strikes also created a paranoia among the Taliban. They believed that a network of local informants guided the missiles. Innocent civilians were rounded up, accused of working as American spies and then executed.
Several days after the drone strike near our house in Makeen, we heard that foreign militants had arrested a local man. He confessed to being a spy after they disemboweled him and chopped off his leg. Then they decapitated him and hung his body in the local bazaar as a warning.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/world/asia/21hostage.html
…no matter how aberrant some US soldiers’ behaviour, I seriously doubt many have behaved like that. Nor is it used as tactic against civilians.
How good was that.
871 that is.
gaffhook at 875
Always good to witness a moment of referential integrity in action.
🙂
Listen Cat…Sod the “referential integrity” stuff.
The true beauty of the moment was….They were singing *IN TUNE*!!!
Quite made my day. Ta. 🙂
Chuck Hagel spent about an hour and a half in an address to the University of Michigan.
It is fairly long and he starts taking questions about an hour in.
He gives his reasons why he would not endorse Johnny bomb bomb at around 1.08.55 in and he gives the GOP a pretty good serve at 1.15.45 in.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/64511-former-sen-hagel-gop-being-irresponsible-on-healthcare#
Sure is Catrina.
Didn’t think i would listen to Hagel and to be honest i did not listen to it all but he is quite good to listen to and i would class him as GINO. He sounded pretty open and honest with the students and the answers to their questions.
If the GOP were all like him their parliament would be a lot easier to get things done.
Paddy
“so you think” you did not have enough time to think about following the old fart Bart at the Valley today.
All I can say about today Gaffy…..is Whobegot that snail disguised as a racehorse. 🙁
Fortunately, thanks to our divine mistress Cat.
I had a large saver on “the omen bet” of Apache Cat and can still afford a beer. 🙂
Paddy, that’s why I enjoyed so much too!
Good ensemble singing and nice intonation, what a treat as public protest!
Katielou,
You must have given Annabelle Crabb a right old dressing down.
This is quite humourous.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/left-for-dead-like-a-dutton-chop-20091023-hdab.html
882
Absolutely Kirri.
Wouldn’t it be nice change, if we could compare demo’s, by rating the quality of tenors and the sopranos. Rather than the density of the tear gas and the voltage of tasers. 🙂
Takes me back……..
Hell, in *my* day, we had Maria Callas singing from the barricades and Mozart wrote the protest songs.
Paddy, with luck, you could open a Master Savers Plan branch at every meet you attend and have The Reserve bail you out each time you have a bad trot! 🙂 Shall we compare trifecta selections when punters know what the track is like on Tuesday morn?
Cat, the NYT link from Taliban hostage, Peter Rohde, contains a few snippets which underline the local power wielded by tribal leaders/warlords and suggests that a Monster Peace Feast (MPF) with dishes full of dollars might have at least some chance of achieving regional stability, especially if ALL the neighbouring nations were invited to the shin-dig.
………………“Despite the danger, Tahir fought like a lion. He harangued our kidnappers for hours at a time and *used the threat of vengeance from his powerful Afghan tribe to keep the Taliban from harming us*”
…………. “As the months dragged on, I grew to detest our captors. I saw the Haqqanis as a criminal gang masquerading as a pious religious movement. They described themselves as the true followers of Islam but *displayed an astounding capacity for dishonesty and greed*”
………….“Under Afghan tradition, guests are treated with extraordinary honor. If a guest is threatened, it is the host’s duty to shelter and protect him.”
Uncle Sammy could do bidness with these folk. He’s dealt with similar unsavory types by the 4WD-load previously.
But first, he’ll have to lose the drones. 🙂
Rollicking good read though, movie should be out by mid-next year.
The choralists were grand and brave and yes, the troupe fair reeked of integrity.
Thank god they weren’t tasered like white trash on highway’s edge.
Ensemble-wise, they could have done with a little more bottom end though. Yeah, a bit of concert-seasoned basso profundo would have been brilliant!
———————————
America’s Other Quagmire:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/oct/23/obama-media-afghanistan-healthcare
It must give the Seppos a breath of fresh air to see things like this interaction with the public.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCYJEVt89zA
Yeah, sure beats the hell out of “what do we want, when do we want it” chants! So mundane!!
But I’m a sucker for a good tune and a good voice (having been part of the massed voices behind the big Pav on a few gigs.)
Make song, not war is my kind of motto, although I wouldn’t use it against the Taliban! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3l48_EGNdY
Very Michael Leunig, that clip Ecky. (But I’m not quite sure why!)
885
Ecky I think you’re on to a winner there.
I’ll speak to Glen Stevens on Monday when I’m passing the reserve on my way to the club.
We’ll organise a nicer little earner and issue some CBO’s (Collateralised Bet Obligations). So we jolly ticsters will have something to blow, when we gather round the wireless on that fateful Tues arvo. 🙂
As a strong union/worker sympathiser, i absolutely cringe every time well meaning protesters are forced by a dim witted union organiser to chant those words.
Arggghhhhhh
Yeah, Kirri, it sure is ….in a Vasco Pajama, Mr. Curly kinda way; the poignance of possibilities perhaps.
Mr Millions: “We’ll organise a nicer little earner and issue some CBO’s (Collateralised Bet Obligations). So we jolly ticsters will have something to blow, when we gather round the wireless on that fateful Tues arvo.”
Sounds good to me, paddy, you’re on!
Back with the tonsiliers and tonsilistas: Maria Callas sure did it for me in a way that La Stupenda never could. Mind you, one gave dear Joan a host of auditory opportunities to persuade.
Anyway, O Ace of Turfs, if you cast a cochlea this fella’s way and don’t get goose-bumps when he hits it, then I’m afraid you’ll have to be removed from this blog and shot at dawn like the running dog of capitalist imperialism that you are, sir!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ku7T5bqGik
890
Go for it Paddy
You will have no trouble getting them AAA rated here.
Rubber band around a handful of losing tickets will do.
Kirri is he related to Richard Adler?
http://www.opednews.com/populum/linkframe.php?linkid=99889
892
Victor Ivanovich is certainly the goods Ecky.
(Mind you, I’m sure he’d sing better with a mullet.) 😆
But now you’ve got me burrowing through the archives and dripping tears all over the keyboard as I listen to my beloved.
Go Maria. 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lii2dEPFni0&feature=related
Harry, how do think the rank and file would feel about a spot of choir practise with this one ante-demo, and then bellowing it out along the concrete canyons on their way to Town Halls? WorkChoice-threatened families could sing it at barbies and infuse the kids with a sense of social justice before they become consumers first and human beings second; and before first person shooter games et al. steal their hearts forever!
This melody is perfect for the job. Anthemic and quintessentially bloody Australian. Bung in a few bolshie/leftist/progressive lyrics et voila! Pret-a-protest. Demonstraters will need to be on-song with a half-dozen or so other standards, but we need a distinctly Australian boisterous equivalent of The Marseillaise that activates solidarity from the opening bars. Straight boogie works well. All the ratbags could chime in at the appropriate pauses with the legendary vulgar triple epithet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl6PIuckYBU&feature=fvw
Ah, paddy, bellissima!
Gaffy, ye of little faith! Armed escorts have already been commissioned to accompany Mr. Millions and his winnings from Flemington come Tuesday. Folklore has it that when bookies see paddy circling the ring on Cup Day, they fall to their knees pleading the well-being of their families and beg him to get laid elsewhere.
Haha Ecky 😆
By the time i got to the bottom of your introduction i knew what was waiting behind da link.
Funny…that’s what i usually end up saying to the tele as the latest union organiser makes a mockery of his workers on the 6 o’clock news by making them chant that stoopid chant again.
Who says there isn’t an upside to high unemployment???
http://www.theage.com.au/world/job-seekers-throng-to-join-us-military-20091023-hdei.html
Bank Closings Hit 101 For Year; Most Since 1992.
The cascade of bank failures this year surpassed 100 on Friday, the most in nearly two decades. And the trouble in the banking system from bad loans and the recession goes even deeper than the number suggests.
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/23/bank-closings-hit-101-for_n_332283.html
Rev. Ed Hinds, Catholic Priest, Found Slain In Church Rectory
Interesting. I wonder if their is any court cases pending?
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/23/rev-ed-hinds-catholic-pri_n_332088.html
No Einstein in Your Crib? Get a Refund.
Parent alert: the Walt Disney Company is now offering refunds for all those “Baby Einstein” videos that did not make children into geniuses.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/education/24baby.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss